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Repair and Restoration => Tube Consoles => Topic started by: TC Chris on May 12, 2019, 09:55:17 PM

Title: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on May 12, 2019, 09:55:17 PM
I was driving back to my Mom's house today and about a block away I passed a small console at curbside. Rain was just starting.  It has no grille cloth and the cones of both speakers were torn out, but it had a nice walnut-veneer cabinet.  I hit the brakes, backed up, and took a peek. It had a V-M changer inside and the electronics--"Homemark."  So I knocked on the door, verified it was out for the taking, slid it onto the tailgate of the truck, and continued on.  At the house I popped the back off and looked.  It's on one chassis, with a separate chassis for the FM multiplex decoder.  It's a single-ended amp, 50C5 each channel, minuscule output transformers, and one larger transformer (power?).  The tubes are branded ITT and Madison Fielding.  The cord for the interlock was inside the back cover when I unscrewed it.  Here are some photos.  Not a high-end unit, to be sure, but the walnut veneers and finish are in very good condition.  Here are a few photos.  The card on the turntable says "Zenith."  ?????

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on May 12, 2019, 11:06:40 PM
I don't see anything on that brand in Sams.  That little stereo is cute as it can be.  Good for you for saving it.  Put a set of speakers in it and see what it will do.  It might surprise you.  It ain't a Concert Grand, but you can have fun with it.  Keep us updated on progress.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: Bill on May 13, 2019, 06:48:55 AM
I love things that are FREE!   Nice find, and like Greg said, add speakers and stir.  You might be surprised.   :)

Bill

Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on May 13, 2019, 08:06:18 AM
The key words here, apparently, are "Madison Fielding".  It is possible they built this little stereo.  I have never heard of the company, but it is the real thing!  You may have a gem on your hands.  The knobs on this little stereo are like the ones on the amps they sell.

http://www.audiocircuit.com/Home-Audio/Madison---Fielding

There are several schematics for Madison Fielding listed in Sams, from 1958 to 1963.  This may open up some more discussion....... ;) :) :-\

Look what my new friend, Mr. Google found for me......

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=madison+fielding+console&qpvt=madison+fielding+console&form=IGRE&first=1&cw=1129&ch=489

Chris, you console is there!   :) :) :) :)  It may not be an orphan any more.

My wife swears she has heard the brand "Home Mark" before.  Probably a hardware store or something like that.
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: Motorola Minion on May 13, 2019, 08:57:50 AM
I think I see a stereo decoder chassis in the last picture..
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on May 13, 2019, 05:27:55 PM

Look what my new friend, Mr. Google found for me......

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=madison+fielding+console&qpvt=madison+fielding+console&form=IGRE&first=1&cw=1129&ch=489



3rd row down, middle photo--that's mine, but with grille cloth.  I'll send more photos later.  Found some surprises inside--a neon-bulb 120 VA tester, a 4-wrench "GE Tubes" socket wrench, another Zenith tag.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on May 13, 2019, 05:28:35 PM
I think I see a stereo decoder chassis in the last picture..

Yeah, the little two-tube chassis down in the bottom.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on May 13, 2019, 10:57:13 PM
I just followed up on that console image that matched mine from Greg's search.  Here's the eBay link:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Madison-Fielding-Stereophonic-HiFi-Console-360-/282920913575

It's exactly the same device under the Madison-Fielding name.  V-M changer, same panel layout, same little speakers, same tuner/amp, but lacking the multiplex unit that mine has.

I had screwed the back on again yesterday so I couldn't easily extract the broken speakers before leaving to head home, but I measured the mounting-bolt centers--4-5/8 for the little ones, 6-1/8 for the larger ones.

More pix, including the Zenith stuff that was inside. It looks a lot better (scratches not visible) in person.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on May 14, 2019, 05:29:33 PM
Are there any codes on the speakers that you can see?  You might be able to find a set of Magnavox speakers or Motorola "Golden Voice" speakers on the bay that would make your stereo sing again.
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on May 14, 2019, 08:22:19 PM
The little console is 145 miles away from where I'm sitting.  The reason I could snag it from curbside is that it was 1/2 block from my mother's house, and her garage (the one with the Chevy sitting in it) usually can be compacted enough for just one more device. 

For my Heath console, living in my garage here at home,, I bought speakers (10" woofer, little tweeters) from Parts Express when their Daytons were on sale.  I wanted rubber-surround speakers and not foam-surround.  What experience have others had with that brand?  Maybe I can have a look-see next weekend. 

This past weekend had all extra time consumed by a sump pump dilemma at my mother's house.  Pump was running but not removing water.  Replace with backup pump, and it worked--until I went back and found that pump running without moving water.  Replaced exhaust hose with a backup, and it worked--until I went back and found it running without moving water.  Ran a garden house through each section of exhaust hose--no blockage.  Put hose in place and the pump worked fine--for one cycle.  Then it ran without moving water. After tracking down each other possible source of failure, it finally turned out to be a faulty foot valve--the last thing I looked at.  @#$*&!!!  Isn't that the usual way we find problems?

Chris Campbell 
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on May 14, 2019, 10:11:58 PM
I bought out the remaining speaker supply in a Radio Shack store in Mesa, AZ 20 years ago.  I haven't bought a speaker since then.  I have a whole wall covered in speakers I have taken out of different devices.  I can't advise you about Parts Express speakers.
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: Harbourmaster on May 15, 2019, 08:23:14 PM
I can usually find whatever speaker I might need, for not a lot of dough on CL or it's ilk.

Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: firedome on May 16, 2019, 04:47:14 PM
Cute little bugger!  Love me those mini-consoles.

I had a Madison Fielding 360 stereo amp not long ago, it was quite impressive actually. Sold it on through antiqueradios.com after I was done playing with it.

Interestingly M-F was started and run by Len Feldman... does that name sound familiar?
He was a prolific electronics writer later on for Pop Electronics or one of the other biggies, I remember seeing his byline quite often back then.  He started out working for Avery Fisher and with Fisher's encouragement and help went out on his own for a few years to start M-F and also sold some as a private label mfr, but being a pretty tough business he later moved on to writing and was quite well known through that pursuit.

I have a pr of Dayton small bookshelf speakers I bought about a yr ago when on sale for the grand sum of something like $45. They are actually quite respectable, I use 'em in my office with a low power tube receiver and CD, but now you can buy them with optional AMTs (air-motion transformers) like the old ESS speakers had, instead of soft-dome tweeters, for a king's ransom of $60 or so! They're pretty hot on the top end but good with tube amps!
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on May 16, 2019, 08:46:01 PM
My exploration so far has been limited, but the first inspection revealed that it wasn't as cheap-looking in electronic chassis construction as the typical low-end model--but gee, those tiny speakers!  I may take a couple small speakers along to connect up and see if the device makes noise, this weekend.  On first inspection I assumed it was a non-transformer set because of the output tubes, two 50C5s.  So the filaments are series-string, but there's a large transformer on the back of the chassis from the two little OPTs (hard to see in my photos because of the changer in the way).  Maybe the filaments are series but the B+ is transformer-supplied?  Has anybody ever seen a device like that?

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on May 16, 2019, 10:53:55 PM
A schematic for the amplifier would be the surest way of telling what kind of a setup it has.  I saw the schematic for an RCA three channel stereo that had the tuner with a heater string and a power transformer and the amp with a power transformer.  There was a 1:1 tap on the PT that powered the 35W4 rectifier and the heater string in the tuner and a 6 volt tap for the eye tube, IF amp tube and the pilot light.  I'm thinking they powered the heater string with a transformer to isolate the string from the line.  And perhaps to help control hum.  Why the eye tube and the IF tube was powered by the 6 volt tap is anybody's guess.












Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on May 16, 2019, 11:51:57 PM
Probably because the eye tubes are only in 6 volt, and their current rating probably didn't match the series-string tube currents.  Same for the IF, I bet.  But it does seem a strange way to cobble together a device.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: Bill on May 17, 2019, 10:58:10 AM
Are we referring to the RCA 3 channel, or the Motorola 3 channel?   ::) ::) ;) ;) :)

Bill
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on May 17, 2019, 11:11:05 PM
The RCA.   ;)

The IF tube is a 6BA6, so wouldn't that run on a heater string?  The 6E5 eye tube I can understand.  I thought it was a rather interesting setup.  I had never seen a 35W4 on a power transformer before.  I reckon the 1:1 tap on the power transformer would serve as an ad hoc isolation transformer wouldn't it?  Probably has more to do with hum than isolation.
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on May 18, 2019, 06:15:29 PM
I'm where the little "Home-Mark" is stashed, and after some more sump-pump follies and cutting  big yard of grass I decided to pull the back and measure the speakers from behind.  They qualify as 6" and 4".  The larger ones have these numbers:  9656 and 270411.  I assume the latter is the EIA code.  If anybody has their codes at hand, translate for me, please.  The smaller one is coded "Japan."  The V-M changer has a model no B1265--a simple 1200-series device. 

Maybe somebody will recognize the cartridge. 

Whoever made it, the model no. is intact on the torn label--336X.  And while it's not high-end and the height of its Fi is not very, it does have nice real veneers and ITT and Madison-Fielding label tubes (Mullards on the MPX device).  The Zenith hang-tag for a modular unit that came with it touts imitation wood-grain finish.  For me, the real thing is way better.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on May 18, 2019, 10:50:30 PM
The "270411" is the speaker code.  "270" is for Quam-Nichols and the "411" is the 41st week of 1961.  That cartridge is quite similar to the one in one of the little GE stereos I have.  I'm guessing a Tetrad model.  ITT tubes were lower-end replacement brand.  I'll bet that little stereo sounds better than you think with a good set of speakers and some TLC.  It is definitely not a cheap piece of junk.  Quam was a good brand of speaker.  Mullard tubes are good.  VM changers are workhorses.  Simple might be a good description.  Nothing wrong with simple.   :) :)

I'd clean the cabinet up a bit, put some burlap speaker cloth in it.  That thing is cute as a bug.  I'd put that between a couple of big Magnavoxes and it would hold its head high.   :) :)

If you ever decide to kick that little stereo to the curb, please remember that I have a DANDY curb in front of my house!   :) :)
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on May 19, 2019, 09:50:56 AM
The cartridge in my little GE stereo is a Ronette 106.  Looks very similar to yours.  I should learn not to post after work when I'm tired.  My brain works less than usual.   :-[ :-\ ;) :)
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on May 19, 2019, 10:47:09 AM
I'm lucky that I have a replacement needle box that was in the console. It's a RonetteSA-5304-ST that replaces a whole bunch of other styli.  It's "for stereo cartridges of various makes, Astatic, BSR and Vaco (see Ronette's detailed cross reference chart)."  Yesterday I removed and straightened the stylus assembly.  It's screw-mounted and shaped just like the one on my childhood steel-cased RCA portable.

There's a bit of original grille cloth surviving on the inside.  It's one of those coarse weaves with a fine black cloth behind.  It's not clear if I could remove the speaker baffle boards for replacement--looks like "no"--so my plan is to cut tempered Masonite to fit the space, cut speaker holes, and cover that with the grille cloth.  Then that could just be pressed onto the front and secured.

It is a handsome little device.  Yesterday I fired it up, thinking I could get some sound out to the voice coil/dustcap remains of the speakers, but the wires from frame to voice coil had been broken on each one. Somebody has added--very carefully and well, looking almost original, wires from the speaker terminals to an RCA jack pair on the back.  If I make up some RCA plug speaker wires I can use remote speakers to test.  But those are at home where the device is not, so it requires planning.  Maybe next weekend.  Meanwhile, the FM stereo light did come on, so there's hope and B+, apparently.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on May 19, 2019, 04:54:22 PM
Look to see how the Masonite speaker panels are secured to the cabinet.  I'm betting with staples.  If so, a rubber mallet, judiciously applied, may be enough to shake the panels loose without damage.  If they are glued, extra caution must be used so as not to bust the wood.  Fine paneling nails can be used to secure after repairs.  I like using black backing cloth under burlap if you decide to use that.  It is cheap and very forgiving to use.

You don't know at this point whether the cartridge is good or not, right?  You say you need six inch and four inch speakers?  What ohm rating?
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on May 19, 2019, 05:15:51 PM
The 4" Japanese ones say 3.2 ohms, a standard rating for small speakers, I think.  I'll bring along a couple little Radio Shack models next weekend and try them.  They have screw terminals AND RCA jacks on the back so I could use regular RCA cables.  That cartridge is an unknown--it's easy for them to get banged up when people aren't using care.  The bent stylus was a bad sign.  We'll see.  The stereo light coming on is a good sign for FM.

FM stereo doesn't switch automatically, I suspect, and that's consistent with early practice.  If my speakers codes say 1961, that's the year FM stereo was approved, so it all fits.  The manufacturer may have had a good inventory of speakers, so it's clear that my device was from 1961 or shortly after.

My plan for the speaker grilles was to use a second tempered Masonite overlay to hold the cloth, unless it's really easy to get the original board off.  It's one piece, and the middle veneer section is fixed to it.

Meanwhile, I spent a rainy Sunday reorganizing my mother's garage so now the two cars--her old Subaru and the '61 Chevy--are side-by-side, instead of having the Chevy behind the Subaru (the garage is L-shaped).  Recycled half a lifetime's worth of cardboard....  The little console now has room to work on it.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on May 19, 2019, 05:36:55 PM
It sound like getting the speaker boards out my not be practical.  What if you glued grille cloth on, then trimmed it with small lath of some kind?  That might be easier than fabricating entire speaker boards.  What I like about burlap is that it is easy to work with, yet you don't have to worry about pattern being straight.  If you get it close to straight, that is good enough.  Use Elmer's white glue that dries clear and dull.  You can iron out the fabric with a utility roller that is used for wallpaper and that.
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on May 19, 2019, 06:02:26 PM
My first home-built speaker enclosures used burlap for the grille cloth.  They were small, back-vented reflex devices from plans in Hi-Fi/Stereo Review magazine.  Built one when I had a mono amp and another when I built my Heathkit AA-22 stereo amp.  Covered them in black Naugahyde. I used two GE 8" speakers that I had. Mr. Phillips, the neighbor with a table saw, must have cut the plywood for me. Still have 'em, of course.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on May 19, 2019, 08:03:42 PM
Burlap gives speaker enclosures a clean, elegant look.  Much of the grille cloth on old radios is too busy to blend with modern furnishings.  My wife is very critical of most grille cloth used in old radios, even Magnavox.  I used black burlap in my little 616 and have had lots of positive comments.  I'm not going to try that with the ST, because I have already done it once.  I got the black burlap and the backing at Hobby Lobby.  You need to use backing on "yard goods" burlap, since it is prone to wrinkle and has little integrity.  The backing keeps it straight and keeps it from wrinkling.  My wife likes to move furniture around to create a different look.  The little stereo with black burlap goes with anything.
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on May 19, 2019, 10:56:40 PM
Is "backing" some sort of iron-on fabric to add strength & substance?

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on May 21, 2019, 08:17:11 AM
The fabric backing I use with burlap is sold for that purpose.  It provides strength to the burlap so it does not move when the speaker cone moves air and it provides body to the burlap.  Burlap is pretty flimsy material by itself.  I glue the backing to the speaker board, then staple the burlap to the board from the back.  You can get backing in several colors.  The folks at Hobby Lobby or a fabric shop can advise you should you have other questions.  The backing is acoustically transparent, if that is a concern.
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on May 21, 2019, 10:48:30 AM
I found some Quam speakers on the 'bay for your little stereo.   :) :)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Old-Stock-Speakers-Lot-Quam-Magnavox-Cinaudograph-Catalin-Vintage-Radio/323810918272?hash=item4b64a27f80:g:KX4AAOSwahtc4SST

And a couple Quam 6" speakers.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/QUAM-6-ROUND-STEREO-SPEAKER-NEW-NOS-LOT-OF-2/382775321542?hash=item591f2fe3c6:g:8fkAAOSwgZlcPAQo

Hope this helps!   ;) :)
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on May 21, 2019, 10:26:38 PM
That second link shows the original pincushion frame but would be an upgrade--larger magnets!

I just looked at Parts Express.  They have a 6-1/2" woofer with rubber surround (I resist anything with foam).  Check it here:
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dc160-8-6-1-2-classic-woofer--295-305#lblProductDetails

That one would probably give a bit more robust bass.  I have a couple Dayton tweeters that I bought for the Heathkit console.  In fact, I bought them twice, which is why I have extras.  Maybe the meory does go when you get old....

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on May 21, 2019, 11:08:47 PM
I was excited when I found those 6" Quams.  Anything would be better than what is there now.   ::)
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on May 23, 2019, 12:36:56 AM
I'll see if the electronics are functioning this next weekend.  The little device is now situated so it's easier to get to, after the big garage-reorganization project last Sunday.  Of course, better news still is that the Chevy can just be started and driven out without moving the Subaru, two old lawn mowers, and a garden cart of of the way first.  And because of the oxidized rear window, I needed another person as a lookout to back it in to its former space.  Last night I located the recent plastic-window article from Practical Sailor magazine, figuring that clear vinyl is clear vinyl, whether it's in a car or boat.  I also found articles suggesting the in '61, GM was using brake fluid in the convertible top hydraulics.  I had been convinced that I had screwed up when I topped it off with brake fluid 35 years back.  Turns out I used the right stuff.  But there are also suggestions that some people purge the brake fluid and replace with ATF or hydraulic fluid, which are probably better choices than moisture-absorbing brake fluid.

But back to the console.  If the electronics work, I'll decide what to do about speakers--go original with Quams, or upgrade with Daytons.  I don't expect to mistake the bass for an earthquake with 6" infinite-baffle speakers....

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on May 23, 2019, 10:03:10 AM
Sometimes performance is not the key issue.  The key issue with that little stereo is that it is cute and unusual.  And you saved it.  Who has another one?  It probably will make as much bass as a Magnavox bi-amp!   ::) ::) :) :)
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on May 25, 2019, 11:19:52 AM
@#*&%$!!!  I brought some small speakers to connect to the console via its speaker-out jacks.  Plugged 'em in, dragged an extension cord over, plugged in, turned on, waited for warm-up....and nothing.  I took the back off--about 8 little hex-head screws, @#(&!!!--and the tubes aren't lighting.  I had put the little AC tester that came with it in my traveling mechanical tool box, and there's power at the interlock.  And when I was wiggling tubes,  got poked slightly by something (kneeling on damp concrete floor).  Last time I tried, it functioned enough for the FM stereo light to come on. So it WAS working then.  All I've done since s move it (lifting, not dragging).  Next I looked at my early chassis photo and then at the eBay console photo and verified that the tubes are in the right location even though it looks as though they aren't (one 50C5 is between IF cans).  Maybe I'll walk away and drive the Chevy out to get some vinyl rear-window polish.  Sometimes things work better after leaving them alone.  By the way, the V-M changer doesn't power up either--never has.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on May 25, 2019, 12:21:27 PM
Sounds like you will be working in the power supply as a first step.  Good luck and keep us posted.   :) :)
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on June 01, 2019, 09:34:00 PM
Since the tube heaters weren't lighting up, I brought a tube tester this weekend, expecting to find a bad one in the series string.  There are two 50 volt tubes and six 12 volt ones--122 volts if we ignore the ".6" on the 12 volt filaments' specs.  But no, they all test OK.  I'm not sure where the two 6 volt tubes on the multiplex converter come in.  Thy test OK too.  There's power at the console side of the interlock.  Maybe a power switch failure?  Not easily removed for service so I did other projects today.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on June 02, 2019, 11:37:15 PM
Could there be a circuit breaker or a fuse somewhere that you may have overlooked?
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on June 03, 2019, 08:43:11 PM
I didn't see anything fuse-like and certainly no breaker (way above this device's pay grade).  The only other easy explanation would be a bad power switch--it's a push-pull method on the volume control that activates a slide switch.  So I worked it back and forth and yanked a bit with pliers and then worked it back and forth some more, to no avail.  And then there's the classic tube-socket issue, so I wiggled all the tubes after I had pulled each one to put it in the tester.  One thing I didn't check was what buffaloed me on the little Zenith 6-tube radio--a 12-volt tube that's center-tapped, with only 1/2 of the heater connected in the tube tester so it tests OK when it's not.  But then, it seems like the multi-section 12-volters had different heater connection on the tube tester for each section.  When we have a bad-weather day on a weekend and no other pressing chores, I'll pull the chassis and poke around with volt and ohmmeter.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on June 03, 2019, 09:41:07 PM
If there was a fuse, it likely would be under the chassis anyway.
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on June 03, 2019, 11:21:41 PM
I'll be able to figure things out when I get the chassis out.  It's not simple--kinda like the Stereo Theater experience, I bet.   You have to pull the knobs, unscrew the faceplate, then pull the chassis-mounting screws that are under the faceplate, and then extract the chassis far enough to examine it or cut the speaker and AC supply wires.  There are not speaker connectors.  Just in case there's no simple explanation, I've asked about a schematic over on ARF.  I mentioned the Madison-Fielding provenance and the Home-Mark model no.  We'll see if there are specialists in low-end phonos over there.  I haven;t quite figured out why a device with such modest speakers was built with such nice veneers.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on June 07, 2019, 08:50:45 PM
I had a conference to attend in Ann Arbor today so I drove down last night to my mother's home, where the Home-Mark is in the garage.  I was home early in the evening and decided to remove the chassis.  Then I pulled the bottom plate (one screw and one tab of solder that I just broke).  There are no connectors so I couldn't un-hitch it from the cabinet so it remained tethered.  Inside I found a wire-wound with the sand covering flaked off.  Aha! I thought, burned resistor and probably a short downstream somewhere.  I dug my little analog meter out of the traveling mechanical tools box and found that the resistor asn't open; it measured about 400 ohms.  Then I checked the power switch.  It's a DPST on-off switch.  No continuity on either side.  All I had was WD-40, and after a big squirt of that it was working.  While the chassis was out I made a tube diagram while I could still see the pin orientation to replace them. 

But then came the problem of re-installing the chassis.  It hangs from 4 screws turned from above, but it's impossible to hold the chassis in place with one hand and reach the screws with the other.  There was a lot of bad language.  At one point the chassis fell, and it broke the twinlead at the FM RF front end.  Aaargh!!!  At that point I gave up.  I'll fix it tomorrow when I'm in a better mood.  And then I'll tro to fnd some way to hold the chassis up from underneath while I drive the screws from above and in front.  WHO DESIGNS THESE THINGS????

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on June 09, 2019, 12:51:45 PM
It's working!  Today I re-soldered the twinlead FM antenna stub that had broken off.  That took longer than usual because I was working on a garage floor with the chassis still connected by too-short wires. #$*^@!!!  Next I recruited another set of hands to run the screw driver from top/front while I held the chassis up from the bottom/back.  But then it was done and, oops, what's this loose blue wire?  One wire had pulled out of the changer's Molex connector so I had to pull the changer to see which blank spot it went to. More %*&^#@!!!  But I plugged it in, on it came, and it works on FM, FM stereo, AM, and passes the "needle scratch" test on phono.  At first it sounded grainy but I left it playing a while to see if caps reformed.  The filters on this one are modern, plastic-covered devices, not the paper and wax versions shown in the eBay ad photo.  I figured it was safe to go with them.  Eventually it sounded louder and better over to little Radio Shack speakers plugged in to it.  I'll bet the originals were more efficient.  Now that it works I'll buy some to fit--Quams to match originals, or Daytons for better sound??

I'm not anxious to do another chassis extraction, at least until I get a schematic so I can make sense of what I'm seeing.  Right now the face plate is in the basement with the dial glass (plastic) being glued back on at the loose end. 

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on June 09, 2019, 11:43:26 PM
Was that a model 360?  I thought I posted the Sams for that, but maybe not.  I found it in my Sams index, if I remember right.  The tuners in Magnavox stereos are HORRIBLE to get back in.  Surprising how heavy they get when you try to hold them up and get the screws started.  By the way, Chris, that's why %$*&@!! was invented.   ;) ;) :) :)
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on June 10, 2019, 06:37:20 PM
The Madison-Fielding model no. for the similar device was 360, I think, but they also used that for a real hi-fi integrated  amp or preamp, which is what usually shows up on a search.

I think I'll order some speakers.  The choice is between the eBay Quams, 2 for $16, or going up to 6-1/2", where there are a lot more options at Parts Express.  They have this nice-looking device for $6 each:
https://www.parts-express.com/6-1-2-poly-cone-midbass-woofer-4-ohm--299-609

I'm thinking that the P. Express device is probably more efficient and wider-range.  It wouldn't look original but would probably sound a lot better (less like two table radios playing).

Any thoughts from other about this choice?

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on June 10, 2019, 06:44:30 PM
  The tuners in Magnavox stereos are HORRIBLE to get back in.  Surprising how heavy they get when you try to hold them up and get the screws started.  By the way, Chris, that's why %$*&@!! was invented.   ;) ;) :) :)

The little Home-Mark added to the frustration by having a top, a lifting lid, in the way.  When you hold the chassis in approximate position with one hand, trying not to let it move, and then reach around the lid to manipulate the screwdriver,  either the chassis would move, or the little clip-on nut would shift, or you'd miss the slotted screw head with the screwdriver.  Then while trying this dance I dropped the chassis and broke off the twinlead.  The only good news was that the circuit board for the FM front end stuck out of its box at the point where the twinlead was soldered on.  Better still, there was a little ferrule in the hole so it was harder to lift the circuit board trace off by overheating--which of course I was doing since I didn't have my desoldering tool there.  I had visions of heading down the common path:  break one thing.  While fixing that, break another.  While fixing that, make a complete mess of something important.  Rinse and repeat.  But no, this time when the fix was done, the thing worked.   Must be the reward for clean living.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on June 10, 2019, 09:22:30 PM
Quam made good speakers back in the day.  My thinking was the Quams might make it sound more like it did when it left the factory.  But that is just me.  I think it would be cool to have the original type speakers in that cute little stereo.  Probably the only one like it on the face of the planet.  If they made it to sound cheap, so be it.  It would not have to be ultra-high-fidelity for it to bring a grin to my wrinkled kisser in any regard.  But you'll do what suits YOU best and that's just fine with me, because that's what I'd do.  You're saving it, and that's what matters.  Good luck with whatever you decide.   ;) ;) :) :)
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on June 10, 2019, 09:56:13 PM
I haven't been following your thread about this little stereo on ARF.  I don't know what, if anything, they have told you over there.  Here is what I've found, maybe it will help.

Sams lists the Madison Fielding model "360 series" as being in Sams 533, Folder 6, dated 1961.  That would put the date pretty close, as we determined that your stereo has FM multiplex.  My suggestion would be to contact Steve Johnson, "theschematicman.com" at 315-282-7931 and ask what is in Sams 533, Folder 6 and see if it is your stereo.  I see nothing whatsoever listed for Home Mark. 

I see someone has made the determination on ARF that the Sams I referenced is for an amp of some kind.  I don't see that information in my index.  I'd still call Steve and ask.  I also see you have found another one!  That one is really nice, but it doesn't "power up".  I wonder if its power switch needs a spritz of WD-40 and some well-placed vernacular.  I probably should have referred to ARF before I posted here.   ::) :-[
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on June 11, 2019, 09:12:58 PM
Parts Express had two 6-1/2" woofers for $5.99 each.  That's better than the two Quams for $16, and ought to sound a bit better too.  The surrounds are rubber, not foam.  OK, the originals were 6", but I figure these will work by moving mounting bolts a bit.  I have a couple tweeters that I bought for the Heath console, and then bought again for the Heath console (my inventory system isn't good).

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on June 11, 2019, 10:12:12 PM
Anything beats speakers not having a cone.  Your inventory system sounds very similar to mine.   ;) :)
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on June 14, 2019, 04:08:41 PM
The speakers for the little console arrived today, the $5.99 specials.  They look good--large magnet, rubber surround, plastic cones.  As mentioned, I had a surplus of little tweets so I just went out to the shop and cut some thin plywood adapter rings to hold the slightly-smaller speakers in the slightly-larger holes, and then sprayed the parts visible outside black.  I'm not quite sure about what cap to use as a high-pass filter (no fancier crossover in this device).  I may use the existing ones as a start and then do some research if the sound isn't good.  This weekend is looking wet so maybe I'll get them installed.  I'll send photos of the speakers later.

I did post an update over on ARF, mostly in hopes of somebody there finding a schematic.  I got  a very stern lecture about the crucial matching of speakers to amp & cabinet, and not doing any departure from the OEM setup or the original synergy would be lost.  Gimme a break... nobody did listening tests when they designed this device.  The lecture included some finger-wagging about replacing all the caps or certain disaster would ensue.  Chris rolled his eyes again.  Any AA5 radio using a 50C5 output will have a transformer of the same size and function as the ones in this device.  The only possible danger would be loss of the power transformer, but again, this is not some massive, irreplaceable unit. 

Nobody offered a schematic over there.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on June 14, 2019, 10:38:04 PM
Self righteousness rums rampant on the other forum.  It's their way or it's the wrong way.   ::) :-[ ;)

You might start with a 16uf @ 50 volt non-polarized cap as a crossover cap just in the way of a suggestion.  That seems to be a common value in Magnavox. 
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on June 15, 2019, 09:15:49 PM
This a.m. I did the speaker transplant.  I'll send photos later.  But wow, the 6-1/2" replacements fit EXACTLY on the existing studs for the woofer (because the old Quams were the pincushion frame) and my plywood adapter rings for the tweeters worked out too.  Then I rewired them with push-on connectors, crimped onto the wires.  Because they were all I had, I kept the original .5 mfd paper caps as high-pass.  Then came the moment of truth, and damn, it sounds pretty good!  There's actually bass, and a good balance.

The only problem is lack of gain.  Nobody would get evicted for playing this unit, at least as it is nowI'm wondering if maybe it's filter caps/low B+?  Drifted resistors?  Note that the sound is great, no notable distortion, just not enough oomph.  Good highs, good bass.  But the basic news is that it's working and does sound good.  I'm happy with my speaker choices--I suspect I get more bass and more highs with the more modern components.

I snapped photos of the new speakers, in and out, and did a short video that I'll post on YouTube next week.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on June 16, 2019, 10:07:02 AM
The woofers I used:
https://www.parts-express.com/6-1-2-poly-cone-midbass-woofer-4-ohm--299-609

The tweeters:
https://www.parts-express.com/t-25-2-1-2-paper-cone-tweeter-8-ohm--279-452

They do sound surprisingly good.  I went out last night to see how AM radio performed late at night.  Answer:  no so good.  Pretty weak performance.  And there is some hum on FM.  It probably would be happier with a capacitor replacement.  A schematic and parts list would help a lot, especially because pulling the chassis just to check compnent values (or for any reason) is a huge PITA.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on June 16, 2019, 10:11:21 AM
It's good to hear it sounds pretty good.  If it has 50C5 output tubes, that's about a watt and a half, give or take, so it might not be all that loud.  It works and you saved it, so I'd say you did alright!   :)
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on June 17, 2019, 09:05:28 PM
OK, console fans, please try to contain your excitement.  The Home-Mark console's debut on video is here:
https://youtu.be/d7vQtXntV9A

It's 1 minute, 40 seconds of sights and sounds.  In the background at the very beginning you can see the baskets of the old speakers on the floor.  Their cones were gone when I found the unit.  So was the grille cloth, as you will see.

I put the headphones on to check the video' audio quality. Pretty good, actually.  The little console surprises me with its sound.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: Bill on June 18, 2019, 06:48:53 AM
Congrats Chris!  It sound pretty good.  Have you decided on a grille cloth yet?

Bill

Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on June 18, 2019, 06:58:24 PM
I'm still kinda thinking around the grille cloth project. I'm inclined to find some thin Masonite or door skin plywood that I could cut to make an insert where the old grille cloth was.  Cut holes for the speakers, cover the filler piece with cloth, secure it to the stereo with velcro or small nails.  It may depend on what kind of cane-like cloth I find, to be original, or what other attractive cloth appears.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on June 20, 2019, 08:01:03 AM
It sounds good, Chris!   :)

I found some reasonably-priced cloth I like at Parts Express.  Good luck.   :)
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on June 25, 2019, 12:43:39 PM
I read on ARF where you are still looking for some type of identification or a schematic for this little stereo.  Do you see the numbers "A-15", "FM-15" or "PR-45" on the chassis or cabinet anywhere? 

Never mind.  Those would be from 1958, too old.  I'm grasping at straws.  Sorry.   ::) :-[

I have not found a scratch about "Home Mark" anywhere.  There is a store in South Africa by that name and a guy on ebay who used it as his handle.  Nary a scratch on the electronics.  That has to be a store brand, but what store? 
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: Motorola Minion on June 25, 2019, 04:04:38 PM
Wow the speakers must have been its limitation all along. Sounds like a Zenith,, even better that its a mystery! If it sounds good, it IS good. I think a famous blues musician said that. :-\
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on June 25, 2019, 06:01:30 PM
Wow the speakers must have been its limitation all along. Sounds like a Zenith,, even better that its a mystery! If it sounds good, it IS good. I think a famous blues musician said that. :-\

That's from Duke Ellington, a pretty good source.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on June 25, 2019, 06:05:01 PM
I read on ARF where you are still looking for some type of identification or a schematic for this little stereo.  Do you see the numbers "A-15", "FM-15" or "PR-45" on the chassis or cabinet anywhere? 

Never mind.  Those would be from 1958, too old.  I'm grasping at straws.  Sorry.   ::) :-[

I have not found a scratch about "Home Mark" anywhere.  There is a store in South Africa by that name and a guy on ebay who used it as his handle.  Nary a scratch on the electronics.  That has to be a store brand, but what store?

None of those numbers appear...  My plan was to find the store brand so I did a search on Home-Mark.  It was a brand of Japanese postwar sewing machines, modeled as they did then on a Singer.  So I don't even know who was using that brand for stereos.  It's a mystery, right up there with "what year and model is this Magnavox."

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on July 01, 2019, 08:17:12 PM
Since there's not much posting going on, I'll add some photos of the Parts Express speakers I used--the 3-1/2" tweeter and 6-1/2" woofer.  I looked in my previous posts when I was trying to find the photos without hooking up my camera, and found none.  Oops.  I did put them up over on ARF where there was some tut-tutting over putting a loose-suspension speaker in an open-back cabinet.  First the console, with new speakers on the left and old on the right.

Then the components themselves, both sides, sitting on the red truck's tailgate.  The tweets have a little plywood mounting ring I cut to make them fit.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on July 01, 2019, 08:22:11 PM
One more thing... in the speaker photos, you'll see square nuts holding the plywood ring.  They're from a big collection of random nuts & bolts, 4 wooden boxes of them, that my brother bought for a couple bucks at a house sale and left at Mom's house.  They're a tremendous resource, especially when the hardware store is closed (i.e., 95% of the time when you need some small part).

So... when did they stop making square nuts and move exclusively to hex, and why?  I mean, you could make a socket to fit square nuts, and they never slip in an open-end wrench like hex heads do when stressed.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on July 16, 2019, 09:20:17 PM
Wow, our super-restorer Greg has sent me his old Maggie grille cloth to use on the little console.  It looks very close to the stuff that was originally on the device, judging by the edges that show inside after the original was removed (why???).  His remnants will be enough to fit the smaller dimensions of my little console.  Now I need to find some tempered Masonite to make little panels to hold the cloth.

After that, I'll need to figure out why the changer motor doesn't go and how to get the turntable off a "modern" version of the V-M 1200 series (one with the size-sensing button in the turntable).  And then work on recapping to give a little more oomph and a little less hum.

But sitting about 6 feet from the console is the '61 Chevy, suffering from a dirty gas tank and a plugged-up Rochester 4GC carburetor.  The Chevy, a summer car, may get priority. 

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: Bill on July 17, 2019, 06:04:58 AM
As you well know Chris, summer is the short season here in Michigan.  :( :(   So, I full agree with you, get the Chevy on the road and enjoy some cruising time.   :) :) :)

Bill
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on July 17, 2019, 09:25:03 AM
That is the original grille cloth off my 616.  My feeling was, and still is, that Magnavox did not do a terrific job matching that cloth to the "NWAL", natural walnut cabinet, on the 1ST616 stereo.  The finish did nothing for the cloth, the cloth did nothing for the finish.  I used black grain filler under the finish, so the brown cane grille cloth had to go.  It was in such good shape still that I did not toss it.  I'm a saver, a "somebody might need that someday" type.  I hope it works out well in the little orphan stereo.

We rescued a little dog from a snow drift in 2009.  The little dog looked like he had been groomed with a weed eater.  We gave the little rescue dog a fancy name, Bentley.  Now you can give your little rescue stereo Magnavox grille cloth.   :) :)

If you can't find tempered Masonite, you might consider using lauan, door skin plywood.  It comes in 1/4" thickness and may be easier to work with than Masonite.
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on July 17, 2019, 09:34:14 PM
As you well know Chris, summer is the short season here in Michigan.  :( :(   So, I full agree with you, get the Chevy on the road and enjoy some cruising time.   :) :) :)

Bill

Summer arrived very late this year, and when it did, it was like somebody had flipped the "summer" switch to "on."  First it was cold & wretched, then it was hot and sunny.  I am lucky because I can wear shorts to work, most of the time.  After work, I really should do productive things, but then I remember that summer is WAY too short so I do summer things.  Like sailing tonight, shorts & t-shirt, listening to music on the boat's "hi-fi" system (see my "My Marine Hi-fi" post under Chat, with photos).  I'll be productive tomorrow, when it may rain.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on July 20, 2019, 09:12:06 PM
Today was the day for projects because rain threatened.  At the car parts place, the clerk said everybody had been in earlier to best the rain.  But it didn't actually hit until I was almost finished cleaning the old carburetor and almost ready to put it back together (of course).  While taking the carb off the Chevy, I was in the garage where the little console sits.  I found an old sheet of Masonite, not tempered but 1/8", and  held the "new" cloth of to have a look.  Wow, looks just right!  Pretty close to hat was there, and the brown tone suits the wood finish.  I measured fr size again and for placement of the holes for the speakers. Maybe tomorrow, maybe the next week I'll get it cut. I swung past the hardware store to buy some flat black paint for the new boards under the cloth.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on July 21, 2019, 12:23:16 PM
Pretty day in Michigan now, but this a.m. there was no wind so I put off going sailing.  Instead I cut the grille cloth holders, which I'm going to call baffle boards even though they aren't.  I cut them to size then cut the holes, remembering to make them mirror-image instead of identical.  Then I sanded a bit to radius the edges and gave them a couple coats of flat-black paint so they disappear under the grille cloth.  That will have to wait for next weekend.  But here are the boards, drying in the sun.

Let's see... yesterday, cleaned & reassembled carburetor.  Today, cut & painted baffle boards.  Now I deserve to go sailing.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on July 21, 2019, 12:24:38 PM
P.S. I made the holes oversize on purpose so they would step back a bit from the holes for the speakers in the console.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: ed from Baltimore on July 21, 2019, 01:12:40 PM
Chris you are a multi-tasker supreme. Cut out speaker mountings, carburater cleaning, sailing,   what next.  Where do you get the motivation, and what's more, the energy ? Just reading the action-packed posts of you, Greg and Bill, to name a few, wears me out.   
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on July 21, 2019, 07:09:55 PM
I'm sorta old but have found that the more I sit, the more I feel like sitting.  So I try to keep moving.  Then there was the neighbor, younger than I am, who always talked about big projects "someday."  He was going to have a sailboat someday but it had to be huge and expensive.  Then he got Parkinson's. Me, I've settled for small and now instead of huge and someday. I figure that I'd better get things accomplished now.  About ten years ago I started riding the bike to work, year round.  Nobody EVER gets out of a car and says "Wow, that drive made me feel great!"  But 2 times a day I get off the bicycle and feel better than when I started.  Plus it saves lots of short trips in the truck, which is a killer for vehicles (especially exhaust systems).  My 2005 Ranger is on its second exhaust system--in Michigan.  The other secret?  Buy a factory exhaust system from Ford, not those cut-rate places that guarantee the muffler (but not the pipes).

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on July 21, 2019, 11:32:55 PM
I wonder why a 2005 vehicle does not have a stainless steel exhaust system from the factory.  My 2004 Pontiac and the old Tahoe both have stainless exhaust systems.  Maybe Ford did not use stainless systems like GM did.
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on July 22, 2019, 08:59:09 PM
The '86 Mustang does have stainless, and the original is in place at 33 years and 144,000 miles. 

The Ranger has a heavy steel system, as far as I can see. As I noted, it has been replaced once in 14 years and 161,000 miles. Seems to me that the first replacement was at about 80,000 mi., and that was when I was driving to work. In Michigan, the real killers are (1) acidic corrosion from condensed-out liquids in short-trip driving, and (2) road salt in the winter.  The latter attacks the joints.  The truck has its original battery, another miracle in cold-weather zones.

Click and Clack, the Tappet Brothers of radio fame, are the ones who directed me to OEM exhaust systems.  "They cost more but they last way longer than the muffler shop version," they said.  On the old Ranger,  was on the every-year system.  The muffler would go one year.  The rear pipe the next year.  The front pipe after that.  Continue the cycle.  The mufflers are "guaranteed" but the pipes are not, and in defiance of all logic, the pipes cost more than the mufflers.  A few bends in tubing vs. a multi-piece assembly, formed & crimped.... you explain why the latter is cheaper.  So when the new Ranger's system lasted about 7 years, I figured another system just like that was worth avoiding the annual hassle of an afternoon off work sitting in the muffler shop.  So yeah, I paid more at Ford, but dammit, I don't have to take an afternoon off every year.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on July 22, 2019, 09:31:42 PM
Is stainless available for the Ranger?
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on July 22, 2019, 11:15:11 PM
No idea, but if I bought a new regular system today and it lasted another 7 years, the truck would be 21 years old (that is,  I would have a shiny exhaust system hanging under a pile of rust).  This is Michigan, after all.  Salt R us.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on July 28, 2019, 12:11:01 PM
After checking yesterday to make sure my new secondary baffle boards would still fit with speaker grille cloth curled around the edges, today I glued up the first edge on each one using yellow glue on the backside.  I'll wait a while before gluing the second edge. The glue says "leave clamped 30 min." so I'll exceed that considerably just to make sure.  Probably go sailing for a while.

The day started early because a beekeeper arrived to rescue a swarm of bees that had been in a small tree in my mother's back yard for 2 weeks.  They usually move off into a permanent home after swarming; this one stayed put.  They had started forming a comb on the tree branch but would not have survived a winter in that exposed location.  Bees aren't aggressive like wasps & hornets but it's better to have them gone to a proper home. 

Hot here in Michigan (observing, not complaining).

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on July 28, 2019, 11:36:12 PM
Pictures, pictures!!   ;) ;) :) :)

I'm interested to see how your little stereo looks with Magnavox grille cloth.   :) :)
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on July 29, 2019, 08:18:37 PM
I've only got one edge glued on each one.  Got that done yesterday and will head out to my shop right after this to glue the second long edge.  I did the first edges where the console & Chevy live and brought them back with me to complete the job.  They should be ready for installation next weekend.  The question is how to secure them.   KLH used Velcro tabs.  My old Genesis speakers have a proprietary plastic ball-and-socket device to hold the cloth panel on.  I have considered using two small finish nails to catch the lower edge of each panel (not through it; arranged so the panel is trapped behind their heads) and perhaps a single small screw at the top, similarly not through the panel but trapping it.  Or maybe Velcro.  Decisions, decisions.  As with many of my projects, I engineer on the fly after making preliminary plans. 

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on July 29, 2019, 08:28:49 PM
Velcro might be the simplest and involve less work.  It will be fine when you get it done, I have no doubt.   :) :)
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on July 29, 2019, 08:34:53 PM
It s going to look great--that cloth is just the right pattern and color for the cabinet's finish and is pretty damned close to the bits of the original grass-cloth-like weave that I can still see.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on July 29, 2019, 09:04:59 PM
Just glued up the second long edge of each panel.  I tried hard to lineup the weave straight with the edge of the panels.  Here's a photo.

You can see the base of the '37 GE radio, still sitting in the shop, at the top of the photo.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: Bill on July 30, 2019, 06:24:56 AM
It looks good Chris. You are almost there, and Greg's cloth should really set your new toy off nicely. 

Bill

Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on July 30, 2019, 08:28:48 AM
Now......You need to put a little red pilot light in the grille cloth like a Magnavox.   ;) :)

That looks amazing, Chris.  I'm glad that is going to work for you.   :) :)
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on July 30, 2019, 09:19:50 PM
It would be fun to have a pilot light.  It's not clear where I'd find a suitable low voltage, although I suspect that the MPX device has a 6 V tap on the transformer, because both of its tubes are 6 V devices (the man chassis s series string). But first I'll focus on electronic updates--get some more oomph out of the amps and more sensitivity from AM and FM tuners.  It may be tired filter caps pulling the B+ down.

And then there's the record changer, which seems to lack voltage.

Tonight  glued the short edges of the secondary baffle boards so by tomorrow they should be all done.  I'm mitering the corners of the cloth on the backside so they aren't too thick.  Tonight I cut the long edge ends at 45 degrees and pulled off the excess.  I was surprised at how easily it pulled off, with yellow wood glue as the adhesive.

Chris Campbell

Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on July 31, 2019, 12:54:30 PM
One of my little GE stereos with a VM changer was suffering from a similar, "no voltage" malady as yours is.  I found the switch, under the rear end of the tone arm, to be partially dis-assembled.  There are two little metal tangs that hold the switch together.  I squeezed these tangs together a bit and that seems to have fixed it.  When the body of the switch was loose, it would not make good contact internally. 

I believe if I were working with something with no schematic (I did this with the radio tuner on my ST), I'd replace with like values of components if I could identify the value.  That little amplifier should not be complicated enough to cause you a great amount of head-scratching getting it sorted.  It has a transformless power supply, so you know that B+ is somewhere close to line voltage.  It basically uses radio tubes, so you know how to handle those.  You can check B+ on the plates of the output tubes to determine if there is a voltage doubler used in the power supply, but I rather doubt that.  You are going to have about two watts of audio power, so you know what to expect there.  I would replace all the electrolytics, paper caps, check resistors, maybe increase the value of the cathode bypass cap, if any, and test/sub the tubes.  Then if you have a specific issue, you can address that.  Perhaps if you would post a good, detailed picture of the underside of the chassis, more eyes would be an advantage.

To me, the power supply for the MPX adapter would be interesting to figure out.  Is it a filament transformer or an actual separate power transformer for the MPX?  Tracing the wiring should answer that question.

Don't forget to remove the old grease on the changer.  ::) :-[ :-\ ;) :)

And if you don't change the filter caps, you'll burn your house down........ ::) :-[ :-\ ;) :)

And don't slather it with poly........ ::) :-[ :-\ ;) :)

And use black getter tubes, be careful of the sound stage, blah, blah.......... ::) ::)
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on July 31, 2019, 08:45:27 PM
This is the puzzler--there is a transformer hanging on the back of the chassis, so while the filaments are series-string, the B+ may be transformer-powered.  Or maybe the transformer is only for the MPX device.  I think not, because the photo of the identical Madison-Fielding branded one had the transformer and no MPX. 

I know life can be lived without a schematic, but it is generally more fun with one.  That's especially true because the schematic is usually drawn as the ideal circuit, whereas the as-built state often has quirks--unused tube socket lugs used as terminal points, grounds in odd places, etc.

The secondary baffle boards are done.  I'll add photos showing one front, one back.  There was surprisingly little waste after I had trimmed the excess cloth.  The color is better in natural light--this was with a flash. I'll make a cardboard template to locate the Velcro so I can glue hooks and loops in the same locations on the cabinet and on the new boards--so both halves line up.  This will be a handsome little device.  Maybe not reaching the nosebleed section of the high-fidelity heights, but much better sounding than expected.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on July 31, 2019, 09:20:57 PM
You did a nice job of aligning the fabric to the board.  That is not easy.   ;) :)

What is the tube complement of your little stereo?  Does it have all six volt tubes except the rectifier and the output tubes?  There was a schematic of (I believe) an RCA stereo with a power transformer and a 35W4 rectifier.  That setup basically used the transformer as a line isolation device.  It was 1:1 for the heater string.  Could that be something like you have?
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on July 31, 2019, 11:56:18 PM
Dammit, I drew up a tube placement chart for it and have no idea where I put it.  I know they added up to about 120V.  25 volt output tubes x 2, 12 volt tubes x6, and a 35 volt rectifier?  Then there's the separate MPX unit, 6V x 2.

The transformer had a bunch of wires, more than just the 4 you'd need for isolation.  Wouldn't it be nice to have a schematic? 

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on August 01, 2019, 08:41:19 AM
A schematic would be nice, but it does not appear like you are going to get one.  In the way of a suggestion, after you get the chassis out and turned over on the bench, find out what that transformer does.  Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that it powers up the heater string with a 1:1 tap, and also the 6-volt heaters for the MPX adapter.  That, along with the wires for the primary, would give you at least six wires.  I'd think that rather than worrying about a schematic, your questions might better be answered by simple observation and by making some voltage measurements.  I know.  Backseat drivers are always the experts...... ::) :-[ :-\ ;) :)
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on August 01, 2019, 10:21:28 PM
Wow, what an optimist... "after you get the chassis out and turned over on the bench"...  it doesn't come "out" because it's all hard-wired IN.  It is not, shall we say, designed for easy service. I still dream of a nice schematic that I can study  and figure out values and voltages from.

Tonight's project followed my purchase of Velcro at Ace Hardware on the way home from work.  There were umpteen choices and I ended up buying "industrial strength."  I was hoping that referred to the self-stick adhesive (they were all self-stick).  Then it dawned on me that nothing would stick very well to the back of the Masonite because it has that grid texture on it.  So I mixed up some 5-minute epoxy and applied it in patches to the place where I'll stick the Velcro.  That should provide a smooth, stickable surface.  If the other half of the Velcro doesn't adhere to the primary (console-side) baffle board, I can staple that.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on August 01, 2019, 11:58:46 PM
I apologize for assuming facts not in evidence.  You have this under control, so you don't need my two cents.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on August 04, 2019, 06:25:02 PM
Today I installed the new speaker grilles.  I'm not entirely happy.  The left one squeezes a bit into its recess, which make a loose spot in the grille cloth.  I'm pondering ways to either stretch the cloth a bit, possibly remove one glued edge and re-glue it, or maybe even rout a slightly larger recess.  Here's a photo.  Actually, the effect is quite good.  I just want it to be better.

The good news was that I had the foresight NOT to latch the changer down, so I could pull it out from the top.  I'll take it home for clean & lube.  The motor rotor feels very stiff.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on August 04, 2019, 11:09:43 PM
That grille cloth, when it was installed at the Magnavox factory was both glued and stapled.  Glue, by itself, without support, is not stout enough to withstand the mechanical stress placed on the cloth when you install the boards into the cabinet.  All the glue really does is to keep the cloth from moving as the speaker cone moves air.  The speaker boards are really tight in all the Magnavox cabinets I've worked on.  I'm guessing the boards are in there so tight so they don't "drum" when the big speakers move.  In the way of a suggestion, I would not stretch the cloth, just make sure it's flat and tight.  Then run a row of 1/4" staples (from the back) down the sides and across the top.  Say 6 on the top and bottom and 10 or so on the sides.  Make sure you eliminate wrinkles as you staple.  Start at one end and work toward the other.  Don't work each end toward the middle lest you bunch up the material.  Make sure to trim the corners so they are not too tight, since the cloth will bunch up there where it folds.  The advantage to staples is that if you don't get it right, you can pull the staples and do it over without damaging the grille cloth.  That old straw cloth is not going to be happy if you stretch it any at all.  You have the cloth so nice and straight on the boards, which is the hard part.  And it is going to look really cool when you get it sorted like you want.  It just needs a little more support on the edges then you'll be stylin'.   :) :)  That's my two cents and has been my experience.  Good luck.   :) :)
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: Bill on August 05, 2019, 08:43:57 AM
I do not see any problems in the photo.  It looks good Chris.

Bill

Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: electra225 on August 08, 2019, 11:18:39 PM
Any progress on the grille cloth situation, Chris?
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on August 09, 2019, 12:12:12 AM
Not 'til the weekend.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on August 13, 2019, 07:38:18 PM
 brought the changer from the little console home with me ten days ago.  Last night I took the motor apart.  The bottom bearing was seized up.  So much so, in fact, that when I popped the bottom bearing assembly off, the little sintered bronze bearing itself pulled out of the lube reservoir/housing.  I couldn't poke it back through the spring-bronze fingers that secure it, so I pried the assembly apart.  That let me lube it up again after soaking in solvent.  Then  crimped it back together and assembled the motor.  The rotor would spin.

Tonight I took the Molex AC power connector apart, pulling out the little contact fingers so I could poke them into an extension cord.  The rotor rotated reluctantly.  I took pliers and twisted the bearing housing until it spun freely--had to get the upper & lower bearings aligned.  Then it took off running happily.  I cleaned the idler wheel but the rubber feels really hard.  I stuck it in the drill press and sanded some of the outer surface off but it still felt hard.  Maybe it will work--by this time the Molex was reassembled so I won't be able to tell if it has any function left.  I also cleaned out the old grease in the turntable bearing, not because it was very hard, but just because.  So now I think I've got a functioning turntable, or at least one that's close and will be cured by a new idler.  We'll see.

Chris Campbell
Title: Re: Another orphan followed me home
Post by: TC Chris on August 18, 2019, 02:19:06 PM
I took my refurb'd VM changer in today to replace it in the console.  Plugged in audio cables and power Molex connector and... nothing moved.  When  first got this one pin fell out of 1/2 of the Molex unit and I poked t back in where it looked like it should go.  Think  I guessed wrong.  Got out a voltmeter and two of the three leads are 120 VAC with respect to the 3rd.  (???)  They're -0- with respect to each other.  So that means the colors on one side of the connector have nothing to do with those on the other side.  I traced the changer wiring and figured out which is which.  Checked the switch and it's working; checked motor field continuity and it's OK too (besides, I had the motor running on my bench).   Of course, the leads are all too short to allow inspecting the situation with everything plugged in.  I was gong back & forth and on the last try, the little flip devices that secure the changer in place flipped in the lock position and I couldn't remove the changer again without taking off the back of the console.  @#&*^%!!!!, or something to that effect.  I am pining for the old Amphenol plug we discussed a while back.  I may try to wire it up better next time but I had run out of time for this effort.

I also delivered the Chevy's new gas tank & fuel line to the Chevy's trunk, but couldn't start it up & drive because there's a dumpster in the way after the garage was re-roofed yesterday.

Chris Campbell