Author Topic: Horns  (Read 99 times)

robbo

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Horns
« on: February 08, 2019, 08:00:39 PM »
I just spent a few hours mucking around with the different horns I have:
The shorter ubiquitous 580053 (not sure who makes, read a bit online about different manufacturers.  I seem to have a pair measuring 8.5 ohms and another pair measuring 10.5 with the same codes)
The mid Jensen 580059 (From a 1962 console with 2 x 12, 12.5 ohms)
And the larger EV 580051 (from a 58 Brittany, 12.5 ohms)

I have ears and will make my own mind up, but still interested if anyone else has a view. 

I find the 580053 to be louder and more prominent vocals. Couldn't tell the difference between the 8.5 and 10.5 ohm sets.
The 580059 has the vocal a little lower, but maybe blends better with the woofer, nice detail if that's the expression.
The EV 580051, despite its size just sounds quieter and not so detailed.

I did a similar trial previously on woofers and the ceramic 15" from the 1-ST233L sounds different to the Alnico in the same set.  The ceramic has more (tight) thud in the deep bottom end, the Alnico has more mid whilst still being strong down low.  In the final analysis I might suspect difficult to detect unless A/B'ing.

When I get my 182 amp back from my man I can see me mixing horns and woofers in the Fantasia to cover the tonal spectrum.  Right now it has the 233L 81 amp and its tuner in with the original horns (580053's and 583976's) and sounds fab-u-lous.


ukfan4sure!

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
    • View Profile
Re: Horns
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2019, 02:41:32 PM »
Well, I know these aren't the ones in question, but my green capped (580069) horns that I have for spares come in at 11.2, 11.3, and 11.4 ohms respectively.  That's pretty darned close to each other.

You know, something to consider is the crossovers....  It could be that different values were used it one vs. the others and that is affecting your perception of them.  I could never test any as my hearing I think goes to about 100 hz these days...  :)   
Professional Smoke Releaser

robbo

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: Horns
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2019, 08:28:48 PM »
Just an update on this. I'm working on getting the best sound out of my Fantasia (=front-facing 59 Imperial 182/54), currently with 60/61 Imperial 233 innards (81/64) installed whilst the original amps get serviced.

I have 2 sets of ? 580053's from 60-62 smaller Imperial-type consoles (they just have date printed on the horn) and 2 sets of EV 580053's from 1958/1959 (1 set original to the Fantasia). The former have rounded black caps and the latter sharper edged caps.

Anyway, the ?'s sound quite different to the EVs.  The ?'s are louder and more crystal/detailed.  Can hear every intake of breath of the vocalist. They allow rolling back the timbre or the treble knobs on the amp to get the same sound as the EVs (if desired), but not vice-versa.

Further, the sharper-edged 530053 EVs sound more similar to the longer 530059 (RP-108) Jensen's and a longer 580069 Heppner that I have.  Of these 3 types, I think I favour the Jensen 530059's.

I have one final set to test: 1962 Jensen 530069's (RP-109) with a large rounded pale green cap, if I get the energy to extract them from the corners of a further console.

Conclusion: the unknown manufacturer round-edged 580053s sound quite different from the three other horn flavours tested/listed...if anyone interested.
Photo added: Order, Unknown, EV 53, Jensen 59, Heppner 69, EV 51 (from a 58 Brittany)

Final thought: I have the louder round-cap horns in my Fantasia right now and they sound really good (better than the others), but I could imagine that they would only emphasise the treble separation from a side-shooting woofer console; they'd sound tinny.  Possibly the EVs would sound better in that setup.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 08:59:02 PM by robbo »

ed from Baltimore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 293
    • View Profile
Re: Horns
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2019, 10:03:56 PM »
           Just curious, when you swap back and forth between different horns, do you install them each time in the cabinets as originally found, and if you do, do you actually put screws in each mounting hole and snug them evenly so that the flange is pressed against the cabinet wood all over ?   I remember reading somewhere years ago that the metal flange should be snugly and evenly mounted against  the wooden cabinet to avoid various edge resonances that can "color" the sound. If you tap various parts of the horn with a metal tool and compare the ringing with tapping a horn installed carefully in its mounting hole there is quite a difference. The one sound is like a tuning fork and the other is extremely dull and damped. 
            I know that the extra time spent would make A/B comparisons difficult. I guess you could swap only one side of a stereo pair at a time and rotate the balance control back and forth or throw a switch somewhere since so many Magnavoxs don't have a front panel panel control.
          In the Acoustic Research speaker ads, the longer more detailed ones anyway, they would issue dire warnings about A/B speaker tests because they claimed that the  more efficient one would be chosen just based on the volume increase alone,  and also the one with the jagged uneven response curve and lots of resonant peaks would get chosen over the smoother response and resonant free speaker (hint-hint-the AR speakers)
          Some horns made by Stephens Trusonic and I think Altec-Lansing had their metal outsides dipped in a sort of non-hardening rubber damping goop, and these were the horns that weren't mounted against wooden front mounting boards but had their edges floating in space

robbo

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: Horns
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2019, 10:46:34 PM »
What I'm doing is crouching behind the Fantasia with the balance switched to one channel and its woofer wire pulled (probably not great for the amp).  I'm then simply listening over and over to the same piece of music as I switch wires to the horn I am testing.  I then do various things where I mount the horns of different flavours and go in front of the console and play with the balance again.  I might then switch the horns around (mounted) and again play pan the phono balance to confirm what I'm hearing.

It's pretty obvious that the "unknown" horn sounds different, with a lot more clarity and space.  That comes through whether listening to the horn alone or listening mounted with everything going.

It's odd that the unknown horn looks from its construction and positioning of screws like the 580053 EV, but I really think it isn't EV unless an updated version.  The metal of the unknown horn is matte, the EV less so.  It's like some unknown company made a copy of the EV but they made it better.  It looks like they supplanted the EV from ~1960-1961 before they in turn got supplanted by the Jensen 580059/RP-109. 


robbo

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: Horns
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2019, 10:54:30 PM »
Point about the extra volume when A/B'ing is well noted, I try to be sensitive to that.

Next weekend I'm going to check if the super-clarity leads to aural weariness after a while.  At one point I had one of the unknown 580053 in one channel and the Jensen 580059 (RP-108) in the other and I sensed I could hear maybe more overall colour.  But I was sensitive to kidding myself / trying to perceive what I wanted.

Further clarification: I tried all 4 of the "unknown" 580053's that I have: one set ~8.5 ohms, the other from memory ~10.5 ohms and they all sounded the same, and different from the other horn types.

To your question: in the Fantasia the horns attach to quite a wide angle metal mount which in turn is mounted to the baffle.  The angle is quite a bit wider than on other consoles I have, almost 45 degrees.

ed from Baltimore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 293
    • View Profile
Re: Horns
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2019, 11:06:20 PM »
      Sounds good.  I seem to remember EV advertising a proprietary horn material that wasn't any kind of metal, but was a sort of fiberglass with a dampening substance mixed in to alleviate any resonances or ringing. I think it was a distinctive color too, and maybe had a bit of a roughness on the surface like the old "Bondo" car body filler. (my body skin is itching just thinking of that horrible stuff). It looked like phenolic like used in electric clock gears.  Again, "I seem to remember" 
           

ed from Baltimore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 293
    • View Profile
Re: Horns
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2019, 11:10:29 PM »
 I remember that angle thing now. RCA had something similar for 2 different 3 1/2 inch cone tweeters angling left and right at around 45 degree angles.

robbo

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: Horns
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2019, 11:12:38 PM »
The EV 580051 - the longer / narrower horn from the 57/58 Brittany I unfortunately trashed (the cabinet at least) are like that.  The ones I have sound cr@p relative to the others.  There were 2 of them in that particular version of the Brittany with a 15 and 148 amp.